Could a super massive black hole actually be primordial black hole in disguise?

Could a super massive black hole actually be primordial black hole in disguise?

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If primordial black hole do exists today could it be responsible for galaxies maybe even quasars, I mean these ancient monsters gobble up all materials in its wake and grow bigger and eventually evolves into say milky way galaxy etc. What are the odds of such events actually happened?

In Theory, Supermassive Black Holes Could get Even More Supermassive

Our universe contains some enormous black holes. The supermassive black hole in the center of our galaxy has a mass of 4 million Suns, but it’s rather small as galactic black holes go. Many galactic black holes have a billion solar masses, and the most massive known black hole is estimated to have a mass of nearly 70 billion Suns. But just how big can a black hole get?

Artist view of an active black hole consuming matter. Credit: ESO/M. Kornmesser

In order for a black hole to get really massive, it needs to consume a great deal of matter early in its life. If it consumes matter slowly, then its surrounding galaxy will have settled into place, and the universe will have expanded so that there isn’t much more matter the black hole can capture. But when a black hole consumes a great deal of matter quickly, the matter gets super hot and tends to push other matter away, thus making it more difficult for the black hole to grow.

Based on observations of the largest black holes and computer simulations of how black holes form, it is thought that the upper mass limit for galactic black holes is around 100 billion solar masses. But new research suggests the mass limit could be much higher.

The study notes that while galactic black holes probably do have a hundred billion solar mass limit, larger black holes could have formed independently during the early moments of the universe. These primordial black holes could have masses more than a million times greater than the largest galactic black holes. The research team calls them Stupendously Large Black Holes or SLABs.

The idea of primordial black holes has been around for a long time. They have been proposed as a solution to everything from dark matter to why we haven’t yet discovered the hypothetical ninth planet in our solar system. But theoretical models have suggested that primordial black holes would be much smaller than even stellar-mass black holes, formed from tiny density fluctuations in the early universe. But this new study suggests that dark matter and other factors could cause some of them to grow stupendously large.

Hypothetical distribution of WIMPs in our galaxy. Credit: Davison Soper

If the early universe was rich in dark matter, particularly a form of dark matter known as Weakly Interacting Massive Particles (WIMPs), then a primordial black hole could consume dark matter to grow quickly. Since dark matter doesn’t interact strongly with light, the captured dark matter wouldn’t emit much light or heat to dampen the growth rate. As a result, these black holes could be huge even before the universe cooled and galaxies formed. The upper mass limit of SLABs would depend upon how WIMP dark matter interacts with itself, so if we discover any SLABs, it could help us understand dark matter.

We haven’t yet observed any Stupendously Large Black Holes. They could be hiding in the hearts of distant galaxies, but they could also be lurking in the vast space between galactic clusters. Or they might not exist. But it’s worth looking for them, because finding one would be a truly stupendous discovery.

Reference: Carr, Bernard, Florian Kühnel, and Luca Visinelli. “Constraints on stupendously large black holes.” Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 501.2 (2021): 2029-2043.

New Origin of Supermassive Black Holes Revealed by Supercomputer Simulation

Computer simulations conducted by astrophysicists at Tohoku University in Japan, have revealed a new theory for the origin of supermassive black holes. In this theory, the precursors of supermassive black holes grow by swallowing up not only interstellar gas, but also smaller stars as well. This helps to explain the large number of supermassive black holes observed today.

Snapshots of the simulations showing the distribution of matter in the Universe at the time of black hole formation (top) and the density distribution of black hole-producing gas clouds (bottom). Credit: Sunmyon Chon

Almost every galaxy in the modern Universe has a supermassive black hole at its center. Their masses can sometimes reach up to 10 billion times the mass of the Sun. However, their origin is still one of the great mysteries of astronomy. A popular theory is the direct collapse model where primordial clouds of interstellar gas collapse under self-gravity to form supermassive stars which then evolve into supermassive black holes. But previous studies have shown that direct collapse only works with pristine gas consisting of only hydrogen and helium. Heavier elements such as carbon and oxygen change the gas dynamics, causing the collapsing gas to fragment into many smaller clouds which form small stars of their own, rather than a few supermassive stars. Direct collapse from pristine gas alone can’t explain the large number of supermassive black holes seen today.

The black dots represent massive stars and the white dots represent stars with small masses. While massive stars are formed in the center of the gas cloud, numerous smaller stars are also formed from the surrounding gas as it violently breaks up. Many of the smaller stars move with the flow of gas and merge with the massive stars. Credit: Sunmyon Chon

Sunmyon Chon, a postdoctoral fellow at the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science and Tohoku University and his team used the National Astronomical Observatory of Japan’s supercomputer “ATERUI II” to perform long-term 3D high-resolution simulations to test the possibility that supermassive stars could form even in heavy-element-enriched gas. Star formation in gas clouds including heavy elements has been difficult to simulate because of the computational cost of simulating the violent splitting of the gas, but advances in computing power, specifically the high calculation speed of “ATERUI II” commissioned in 2018, allowed the team to overcome this challenge. These new simulations make it possible to study the formation of stars from gas clouds in more detail.

Snapshots of the simulations showing the density distribution of black hole-producing gas clouds. The black dots near the center of the figure represent massive stars, which are thought to evolve into a black hole in time. The white dots represent stars that are smaller than 10 solar mass and were formed by the fragmentation of the gas cloud. Many of the smaller stars merge with the supermassive stars at the center, allowing the massive stars to grow efficiently. Credit: Sunmyon Chon

Contrary to previous predictions, the research team found that supermassive stars can still form from heavy-element enriched gas clouds. As expected, the gas cloud breaks up violently and many smaller stars form. However, there is a strong gas flow towards the center of the cloud the smaller stars are dragged by this flow and are swallowed-up by the massive stars in the center. The simulations resulted in the formation of a massive star 10,000 time more massive than the Sun. “This is the first time that we have shown the formation of such a large black hole precursor in clouds enriched in heavy-elements. We believe that the giant star thus formed will continue to grow and evolve into a giant black hole,” says Chon.

Mass distribution of stars formed in the simulation of gas clouds containing heavy elements. In this research, the evolution of the first stars was calculated over roughly 10,000 years following their formation. The presence of heavy elements such as carbon and oxygen causes the gas cloud to break up violently, resulting in a distribution with a peak around one solar mass. On the other hand, a supermassive star 10,000 times the mass of the Sun would also form at the same time. It is thought that the supermassive stars will grow further in mass and eventually evolve into a supermassive black hole. Credit: Sunmyon Chon

This new model shows that not only primordial gas, but also gas containing heavy elements can form giant stars, which are the seeds of black holes. “Our new model is able to explain the origin of more black holes than the previous studies, and this result leads to a unified understanding of the origin of supermassive black holes,” says Kazuyuki Omukai, a professor at Tohoku University.

This result was published as Chon and Omukai “Supermassive star formation via super competitive accretion in slightly metal-enriched clouds” in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society in May 2020.

NAOJ supercomputer ATERUI II (Cray XC50) operated at NAOJ Mizusawa Campus (Oshu, Iwate) with a theoretical peak performance of 3.087 Pflops. Credit: NAOJ

This research utilized the NAOJ supercomputer ATERUI II (Cray XC50) for the simulation of massive star formation. ATERUI II is operated at NAOJ Mizusawa Campus (Oshu, Iwate) with a theoretical peak performance of 3.087 Pflops.

Reference: ” Supermassive star formation via super competitive accretion in slightly metal-enriched clouds” by Sunmyon Chon and Kazuyuki Omukai, 4 April 2020, Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.
DOI: 10.1093/mnras/staa863

Is Planet 9 Actually A Primordial Black Hole?

Conventional theory has it that Planet 9 —- our outer solar system’s hypothetical 9 th planet —- is merely a heretofore undetected planet, likely captured by our solar system at some point over its 4.6 billion year history.

But Harvard University astronomers now raise the possibility that orbital evidence for Planet 9 could possibly be the result of a missing link in the decades-long puzzle of dark matter. That is, a hypothetical primordial black hole (PBH) with a horizon size no larger than a grapefruit, and with a mass 5 to 10 times that of Earth.

How might it be detected?

In a paper accepted for publication in The Astrophysical Journal Letters, the co-authors argue that observed clustering of extreme trans-Neptunian objects suggest some sort of massive super-earth type body lying on the outer fringes of our solar system. Perhaps as much as 800 astronomical units (Earth-Sun distances) out.

So, the authors propose that a unique wide-field survey telescope, now under construction in Chile, will soon allow them to set new limits on the possibility that Planet 9 may indeed be a PBH instead of just an ordinary planet. If they exist, such PBHs would require new physics and go a long way towards solving the mystery of the universe’s missing mass, or dark matter.

Our paper shows that if Planet 9 is a black hole, then comets residing in the outskirts of the Solar system (in the "Oort cloud") would impact it, Avi Loeb, Chair of Harvard University’s Dept. of Astronomy and the paper’s co-author, told me. They would then be destroyed by its strong gravitational tide and within a second of accreting onto the black hole would produce a visible flare, he says.

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For large enough comets, this flare of light would be detectable by the LSST’s 8.4-meter optical telescope.

The idea is that once in the vicinity of a black hole, small cometary bodies would melt as a result of Heating from the background accretion of gas from the interstellar medium onto the black hole, Amir Siraj, the paper’s first author and an Harvard University undergraduate, noted in a statement.

The authors calculate that they would be capable of detecting the first such accretion flare within a few months of the LSST’s operation which is now slated for first light in 2021.

Why the LSST?

The LSST will be unique in its ability to survey the entire sky about twice per week at a remarkable level of sensitivity, Siraj told me. We calculated that the flares from the accretion of a small body onto a Planet 9 black hole would be brightest near the optical band, where LSST operates, he says. And since Planet 9's position is unknown, Siraj notes the fact that LSST surveys the sky so quickly maximizes its chance of catching a flare.

The authors say that such brief accretion flares would be detected at a rate of at least a few per year out to a distance of some 105 AU. And they expect to be able to rule out or confirm Planet 9 as a primordial black hole within the first two years of the LSST’s operation.

Why would our own solar system harbor such an exotic primordial black hole?

Simply by their sheer numbers in the cosmos. The authors estimate that it might be somewhat likely that our solar system gravitationally-captured at least once such primordial black hole over the eons.

What would the detection of such an exotic black hole mean for physics?

Loeb says that the formation of primordial black holes would definitely represent new physics. The process that made them in the early universe is not predicted by the Standard Model of particle physics and cosmology, he says.

If Planet 9 is a primordial black hole, are there likely to be others within the galaxy?

If it is a black hole, there should be fifty quadrillions like it in the Milky Way alone, says Loeb.

Loeb says there’s nothing to lose in using the LSST to look for such primordial black hole relics. Over the past four decades, lab searches for dark matter searches consumed tens of millions of dollars, he says.

“Our paper proposes to use LSST as a dark matter experiment, searching for primordial black holes at no extra cost,” said Loeb.

Gravity's twin

How weird? Well, so weird that it goes far, far beyond the current boundaries of known physics. Thankfully, theoretical physicists are hard at work, every single day, to go far, far beyond the current boundaries of known physics. One such example is called supersymmetry, and it's an attempt by physicists to both explain some of the inner workings of the particle world and to predict the existence of brand-new particles.

In supersymmetry, every particle of the Standard Model (the name given to our current best understanding of the subatomic realm) is paired with a partner. The reason for this pairing is a fundamental symmetry found deep in the mathematics that might describe nature. But this symmetry is broken (through the machinations of some complex mechanisms), so the supersymmetry partner particles don't simply float around in the world or make grand entrances in our particle colliders.

Instead, because of the broken symmetry, the partner particles are forced to have incredible masses, so high that they can only appear in the highest-energy reactions in the universe. So far, we haven't found any evidence for supersymmetry partner particles in our collider experiments, but we're still looking.

While the search goes on, theorists spend their time toying around with the various models and possibilities of supersymmetry. And in one version, there's a particle known as the gravitino. The gravitino is the supersymmetry partner particle of the graviton, which itself is the hypothetical particle that carries the force of gravity.

If you're starting to worry that all this sounds a bit too hypothetical, it's OK. The existence of the gravitino is highly speculative and not based on any existing evidence. But, as we will soon see, some models of the gravitino imbue them with some very special properties that make them ripe for seeding the formation of black holes.


One of the first discoveries by NASA after sending initial probes through the Wormhole was likely Gargantua. The Lazarus Missions engaged in very little study of Gargantua, but NASA's interstellar relay determined its gravitational influence on its planetary system.

The black hole Gargantua was used for a powered slingshot maneuver to facilitate Brand's arrival on Edmunds' planet, as the Endurance did not have enough fuel to reach Edmunds on its own. Gargantua also transported Cooper and TARS to the tesseract, allowing them see the black hole's singularity and relay the quantum data to Cooper's daughter via morse code. Presumably, Gargantua is in or near to the center of the galaxy for which it resides. Due to the presence of large amounts of neutron stars and IMBHs (intermediate mass black holes) it could possibly be the super-massive black hole of the home galaxy.

Ancient Supermassive Black Hole Beam is Headed Towards Earth

Officially known as PSO J030947.49+271757.3, scientists have come across the an ancient “blazar,” or a galaxy with a supermassive black hole that is sending out massive amounts of light, roughly 13 billion light years away. This supermassive black hole feeds on large volumes of infalling gas, dust, as well as stars, and as this material falls towards it, things becomes extremely hot and energetic, sparking the release of luminous jets of matter / radiation that travel close to the speed of light. This transformation results in explosive beams that are forceful enough to go right through galaxy clusters. Read more for a video and additional information.

PSO J039047 boasts a redshift value of 6.1, the largest ever observed for a black hole and due to it being 13 billion light-years away, it was firing a beam of radiation toward Earth less than 1-billion years after the big bang. The team suspect that there could be 100 other objects like PSO J030947, but they might all be quasars with beams pointed in various directions.

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The central point of our discovery is that the observation of PSO J0309+27 allows us to quantify, for the first time, the number of AGN with powerful relativistic jets present in the primordial universe…there must be 100 similar AGN with the jets pointed elsewhere, and therefore too weak to be seen directly. The spectrum that appeared before our eyes confirmed first that PSO J0309+27 is actually an AGN, or a galaxy whose central nucleus is extremely bright due to the presence, in its center, of a supermassive black hole fed by the gas and the stars it engulfs,” said Silvia Belladitta, a graduate student at the University of Insubria in Italy.

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February 26, 2015 at 5:27 pm

I wonder if perhaps the big bang was not as smooth as it is typically thought to have been and some of these super massive black holes are primordial.

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February 27, 2015 at 5:23 pm

Utterly amazing! Is it possible for dark matter to form (or collapse into) a black hole?
Did the ratio of dark matter to hydrogen change over time scales of billions of years?

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February 28, 2015 at 3:50 pm

Let's say it gained 12 billion solar masses in 600 million years, or 20 solar masses per year (sm/yr). Assume the conversion efficiency is 50%, i.e. 40 sm/yr falls in, but 20 sm/yr of that gets converted into pure energy: the radiation we see.

The 20 sm/yr emitted as pure energy comes out to 0.38 sm/week, or 0.0023 sm/hr, or 1.3E24 kg/s, or 1.1E41 watts. In other words, in order to form in the given amount of time, it must have radiated energy at an average of 1.1E41 watts.

How does its actually luminosity compare to the average luminosity required for it to form using the simplest assumption(s)?

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i think black holes are quit amazing,, even tho they are massive and some times scary.

Could a super massive black hole actually be primordial black hole in disguise? - Astronomy

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Lies. ( Score: 5, Funny)

Everyone knows you can only keep a wormhole open for 38 minutes.

Re: ( Score: 2)

Everyone knows you can only keep a wormhole open for 38 minutes.

Except when it is connected to a black hole.

Re: ( Score: 2)

Re:Lies. ( Score: 5, Funny)

Even in Stargate mythology, there are ways to keep wormholes open for more than 38 minutes.

1) Yes - for a wormhole to stay open longer than 38 minutes, a crucial plot point must require it.

2) No, you're thinking of the opening scene from Stargate Universe - it only seemed to drag on for days.

Re: ( Score: 3)

Except it's an important plot point that wormholes cannot stay open for more than 38 minutes, coincidentally the average show length. What happens when 2 conflicting plot points collide? Do plot and anti-plot annihilate each other?

Re: ( Score: 3)

The limitation in stargate was due to that energy: It accumulated. Pumping energy into the wormhole, it can't go anywhere, so the wormhole structure just gets more high-energy and harder to contain. Beyond 38 minutes the gate can't maintain stability, and even it if were possible the eventually closing of the wormhole would release all the energy accumulated within in a rather large explosion. One of the times the 38 minute rule was broken was through the use of a superweapon designed to do exactly that.

What is the new imaging expected to reveal? ( Score: 2)

Worms crawling in and out?

Whatever is there. ( Score: 2)

has a lot of mass. so. this might a difference without distinction.

Re: ( Score: 2)

Re: ( Score: 2)

Yeah but. we don't know of anything can bend space time on a galactic level besides mass.

Why it matters ( Score: 5, Interesting)

Re:Why it matters ( Score: 4, Interesting)

However, there are hypotheses that wormholes to be stabilized require using negative matter

If Sag A* is a wormhole, and required stabilizing, then it would have destabilized long long time ago, since it has been constantly gobbling up regular matter (albeit infrequently lately).

I doubt anything could pass through a wormhole, since that would probably break causality or the laws of thermodynamics. Also, we should have detected stuff coming out of the other side (maybe not of this one, but there should be "exits" all over the universe).

If wormholes exist, my guess is they will be more like a pair of entangled black holes. They would look like normal black holes, until you did a careful statistical analysis of Hawking radiation of both.

Re: ( Score: 3)

there should be "exits" all over the universe

Why should there be exits? What if they go to another universe? Or alternately, who says there aren't exits all over the universe?

we should have detected stuff coming out of the other side

Why? Is there one nearby that we can observe with our extremely primitive and limited technology? Would we know it if we saw it?

Re: ( Score: 2)

Why? Is there one nearby that we can observe with our extremely primitive and limited technology? Would we know it if we saw it?

Yes, we would know if we saw it. Essentially it would look very close to a white hole []. And we should expect that if wormhole entrances are common then by the Copernican principle we should see some exits near us. This is one of the major reasons to doubt this sort of thing. As to your question about other universes- GR is not really happy with wormholes going from universes to universes- no one has been able to get the math to work out in a reasonable fashion- there's

Re: ( Score: 2)

If a wormhole creates an event horizon on both ends then we won't see anything coming out of it.

Re: ( Score: 2)

Then where does the poo go? (when it's vapoorized)

Re: ( Score: 2)

Why should there be exits? What if they go to another universe?

I was talking about the classic kind of wormhole. Either it has a direction, and then there should be a 50/50 chance that any end is an exit, or it has no direction and both ends can act like an exit.

If they go to another universe, then I would expect other universe's wormholes to connect to ours too, in a similar ratio (otherwise our universe would be very special, and lose matter/energy).

Is there one nearby that we can observe with our extremely primitive and limited technology? Would we know it if we saw it?

Matter almost falling into a black hole, but escaping, is the source of some of the most energetic bursts of cosmic ray

Re:Why it matters ( Score: 5, Interesting)

One possible solution is that our wormholes (if they exist) are actually "pre big bang events" for a whole new universe inside the wormhole, and that they actually contain an infinite volume. "White hole" stage happens at the big bang inside, and any subsequent mass energy that falls in from our side just becomes dark energy on their side, distributed everywhere.

It would be interesting to try to plot out how causality works over the bridge.

the way I envision it though (which is almost certainly wrong), is that time is more confined (slower) near the bridge, but becomes less confined (faster) as the space on the other side expands in volume. (Speed is measured as 'planc seconds against unit of spacetime traversed by photon in vacuum' EG, near the bridge, photons appear to travel more slowly, where away from the bridge, they appear to travel more quickly. The actual energy of the photon has not changed, but the ratio between space and time has changed. There is more 'time' near the bridge than there is space, and vise versa further away.)
Any particular "moment" can be seen as a topological point on the 'surface' of the wormhole.

(See for instance this image of the standard inflation model of our universe.)

If you cross your eyes when you look at it, the model resembles a white hole, where the "hole" is the big bang, the energy was delivered "all at once", and what we percieve as time is just a manifestation of the energy delivered. (it would explain why time runs only in one direciton, and a number of other interesting things. it could theoretically explain dark energy, etc.)

Another interesting tidbit: Supermassive objects like sagitarius A have a hard time "feeding". This may account for the inflationary curvature of our own universe if you, again, cross your eyes when you look at it.

EG, early in the universe, mass energy from the higher up one was spilling into ours. (their "hole" was feeding), but as it grew in intensity, the curvature on their end made such feeding more difficult, and the rate of influx slowed sharply-- ending the rapid expansion period.

If that's the case, then some corollary math should add up against observational metrics against black hole feeding on our side, and may give some interesting insights.

Can any of the more physics-head types see if there is a correlation between the estimated energy of the universe at the end of the hyper-expansionary epoch, and the event horizon size of these super massive black holes that can no longer feed?

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